[9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop

[Aharon Robbins]

This says a lot, rather nicely:

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html

Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
story all over again.

(Or maybe the story never ended. Either way, the users are the ones who lost
out.)

Arnold

[Christoph Lohmann]

Greetings comrades.

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com> wrote:
> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>
> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
> story all over again.

The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?


Sincerely,

Christoph Lohmann

[Rodrigo Miranda]

Cel. Mustard
With the candlestick
In the Dining Room


Rodrigo Miranda

``The zen master hit me in the head.

I told him:

"If you keep hitting me in the head,

I won't be able to learn a thing!"

He hit me again.

In

the

head.ŽŽ (Rodrigo Miranda)


On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Christoph Lohmann <***@r-36.net> wrote:

> Greetings comrades.
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com>
> wrote:
> > This says a lot, rather nicely:
> >
> > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
> >
> > Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
> > story all over again.
>
> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph Lohmann
>
>
>

[erik quanstrom]

> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?

poor special effects?

- erik

[a***@skeeve.com]

erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:

> > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>
> poor special effects?
>
> - erik

The Plan 9 desktop was never aimed at the consumer market, which is
what Miguel was bemoaning for Linux. Plan 9 was never even aimed the
broader Unix / software developer market; it was designed mainly to
please the developers (which is fine, they did great things, but let's
be honest here).

The broader point is that the Unix / Linux / Open Source "communities"
seem to be plagued with a never-ending desire to reinvent the same wheels
over again instead of moving forward. This may be part of what Rob had
in mind in his 2000 paper about systems reearch being dead.

And it may just be part of the human condition. :-(

Arnold

[erik quanstrom]

> erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:
>
> > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
> >
> > poor special effects?
> >
> > - erik
>
> The Plan 9 desktop was never aimed at the consumer market, which is
[...]

that was supposed to be a switcheroo, not a comment on plan 9 graphics
or the importance of graphics.

sorry.

- erik

[Albert Skye]

erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:

> > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>
> poor special effects?

it's just resting!
but maybe it should die

yes
no "modern GUI", &c.
(and I'm grateful for that! :)

but Plan 9 (and other software)
can be much more useful by exposition
within a *typographical interface*
i.e.,
an interface
informed by typographical imperative[1]
(to increase signal
decrease noise)
in
arranging streams
(of text/numbers/symbols/images
outputs and inputs)
using established patterns
of typographical technology
for
improving the interface/tools
between process and user

to make it
natural/immediate/effortless

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style

[Julius Schmidt]

the solution is
to just stop worrying and love
the bitmap font because there
are more important things
in life.
such as not inserting spurious
new lines
in mailing list posts.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Albert Skye wrote:

> erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:
>
>>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>>
>> poor special effects?
>
> it's just resting!
> but maybe it should die
>
> yes
> no "modern GUI", &c.
> (and I'm grateful for that! :)
>
> but Plan 9 (and other software)
> can be much more useful by exposition
> within a *typographical interface*
> i.e.,
> an interface
> informed by typographical imperative[1]
> (to increase signal
> decrease noise)
> in
> arranging streams
> (of text/numbers/symbols/images
> outputs and inputs)
> using established patterns
> of typographical technology
> for
> improving the interface/tools
> between process and user
>
> to make it
> natural/immediate/effortless
>
> [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style
>
>

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:20:47AM -0700, Albert Skye wrote:
> erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:
>
> > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
> >
> > poor special effects?
>
> it's just resting!
> but maybe it should die
>
> yes
> no "modern GUI", &c.
> (and I'm grateful for that! :)
>
> but Plan 9 (and other software)
> can be much more useful by exposition
> within a *typographical interface*
> i.e.,
> an interface
> informed by typographical imperative[1]
> (to increase signal
> decrease noise)
> in
> arranging streams
> (of text/numbers/symbols/images
> outputs and inputs)
> using established patterns
> of typographical technology
> for
> improving the interface/tools
> between process and user
>
> to make it
> natural/immediate/effortless
>
> [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style
>

Who Ignore 4 Simultaneous

Days Same Earth Typography.

Practicing Evil ONEness -

Upon Earth Of Quadrants.

Evil Adult Crime VS Youth.

Supports Lie Of Integration.

1 Educated Are Most Dumb.

Not 1 Human Except Dead 1.

Man Is Paired, 2 Half 4 Self.

1 of God Is Only 1/4 Of God.

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 03:37:57PM -0400, Corey Thomasson wrote:
>
> Everyday I'm slightly more convinced that you're a highly sophisticated
> Markov chain.

How do you feel about you're a highly sophisticated
Markov chain?

[Corey Thomasson]

On Oct 18, 2012 11:44 AM, "Kurt H Maier" <khm-***@intma.in> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:20:47AM -0700, Albert Skye wrote:
> > erik quanstrom <***@quanstro.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
> > >
> > > poor special effects?
> >
> > it's just resting!
> > but maybe it should die
> >
> > yes
> > no "modern GUI", &c.
> > (and I'm grateful for that! :)
> >
> > but Plan 9 (and other software)
> > can be much more useful by exposition
> > within a *typographical interface*
> > i.e.,
> > an interface
> > informed by typographical imperative[1]
> > (to increase signal
> > decrease noise)
> > in
> > arranging streams
> > (of text/numbers/symbols/images
> > outputs and inputs)
> > using established patterns
> > of typographical technology
> > for
> > improving the interface/tools
> > between process and user
> >
> > to make it
> > natural/immediate/effortless
> >
> > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style
> >
>
> Who Ignore 4 Simultaneous
>
> Days Same Earth Typography.
>
> Practicing Evil ONEness -
>
> Upon Earth Of Quadrants.
>
> Evil Adult Crime VS Youth.
>
> Supports Lie Of Integration.
>
> 1 Educated Are Most Dumb.
>
> Not 1 Human Except Dead 1.
>
> Man Is Paired, 2 Half 4 Self.
>
> 1 of God Is Only 1/4 Of God.
>
>
>
>

Everyday I'm slightly more convinced that you're a highly sophisticated
Markov chain.

[Albert Skye]

I welcome anyone interested in discussing
the nature of typographic interface
to contact me off-list

I simply see untapped potential
and I want to bring it into useful form
(by communication/cooperation more than solitude)

askye

[t***@polynum.com]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:05:08PM +0200, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
>
> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>

Having forgotten that a market for a sensible solution is a niche
market. Only stupidity and lack of reflexion can replace the "what do
I need" with "i don't know what I need ; so what everybody has is
obviously what I do need", hence a mass market (the Panurge's sheeps).

--
Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
> Greetings comrades.
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com> wrote:
>> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>>
>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>>
>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
>> story all over again.
>
> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?

1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools
3) Lack of a decent web0browser
4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client
5) Lack of an Office Applications suite
...
...
...
z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go

--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)

[Oleksandr Iakovliev]

On 2012-10-18 11:03 , Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
> On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
>> Greetings comrades.
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com>
>> wrote:
>>> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>>>
>>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>>>
>>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
>>> story all over again.
>>
>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>
> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools
> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser
> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client
> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite
> ...
> ...
> ...
> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go
>

But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)

[Nemo]

that's what I thought. :)

On Oct 18, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Oleksandr Iakovliev <***@lynxline.com> wrote:

> On 2012-10-18 11:03 , Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
>> On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
>>> Greetings comrades.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com> wrote:
>>>> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>>>>
>>>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>>>>
>>>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
>>>> story all over again.
>>>
>>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>>
>> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
>> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools
>> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser
>> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client
>> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go
>>
>
> But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)

[Pavel Klinkovsky]

Dne čtvrtek, 18. října 2012 14:23:03 UTC+2 Oleksandr Iakovliev napsal(a):
>> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
>> ...
> But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)

I mostly agree except the browser.
I would appreciate a well working browser in the P9 too. ;)

Pavel

[erik quanstrom]

> A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-)

you overestimate how complicated an os needs to be.

- erik

[Oleksandr Iakovliev]

On 2012-10-18 18:52 , erik quanstrom wrote:
>> A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-)
> you overestimate how complicated an os needs to be.
>
> - erik
>

Browsers are on the dark side - they have cookies

[Robert Raschke]

A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-)
On Oct 18, 2012 3:25 PM, "Pavel Klinkovsky" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dne čtvrtek, 18. října 2012 14:23:03 UTC+2 Oleksandr Iakovliev napsal(a):
> >> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
> >> ...
> > But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)
>
> I mostly agree except the browser.
> I would appreciate a well working browser in the P9 too. ;)
>
> Pavel
>
>

[Stephen Wiley]

On Oct 18, 2012, at 5:03 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:

> On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote:
>> Greetings comrades.
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins <***@skeeve.com> wrote:
>>> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>>>
>>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>>>
>>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same
>>> story all over again.
>>
>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>
> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools
> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser
> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client
> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite
> ...
> ...
> ...
> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go
>
> --
> Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
> (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
>

Is this another one of those weird plan9 jokes?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 09:49:41PM +0200, Aharon Robbins wrote:
> This says a lot, rather nicely:
>
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html
>

The guy whose entire career has been spent cloning DOS and Windows
software claims that Linux sucks because it's not enough like Windows?

huge surprise

[Brian L. Stuart]

>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop?
>>
>> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit
>> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools
>> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser
>> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client
>> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go
>
> But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)

Precisely. The correlation between what makes something
good and what makes something popular is small but negative.
One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that
it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the
commercial junk out there.

In general, I don't have any objection to reinventing the
wheel. If no one ever did, we wouldn't have the pneumatic
tire. But just fiddling about the edges and deciding what
color it should be is the worst of R&D sins. It's BORING.

If you ever watch the TV shows that are competitions of
creative work, the most damning thing a judge can say is
that it's boring. The same is true of software development
and engineering. Besides, it it becomes unfun very quickly
if you can't start something new with a clean sheet of
paper at least every few months.

BLS

[John Floren]

> Precisely. The correlation between what makes something
> good and what makes something popular is small but negative.
> One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that
> it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the
> commercial junk out there.

I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png


john

[andrey mirtchovski]

> I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png

winner!

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Erudite Glenda in Winter?

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:17 AM, John Floren <***@jfloren.net> wrote:
>> Precisely. The correlation between what makes something
>> good and what makes something popular is small but negative.
>> One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that
>> it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the
>> commercial junk out there.
>
> I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png
>
>
> john
>

[Calvin Morrison]

On Oct 18, 2012 2:34 PM, "Skip Tavakkolian" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Erudite Glenda in Winter?
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:17 AM, John Floren <***@jfloren.net> wrote:
> >> Precisely. The correlation between what makes something
> >> good and what makes something popular is small but negative.
> >> One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that
> >> it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the
> >> commercial junk out there.
> >
> > I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png
> >
> >
> > john
>

I used plan9 before it was cool

-- full time philosopher/part time starbucks barista

[Dan Cross]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Floren <***@jfloren.net> wrote:

> I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png
>

Bravo.

- Dan C.

[y***@telus.net]

> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html

If developmental stability was all it took to attract third party developers then why didn't FreeBSD "win the desktop" a decade ago? Or indeed Plan 9 (I suppose this is reductio)?