[9fans] Summary of acme chords

[s***@9front.org]

> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1QVUS-qAuuienlTMHdRYkFzSHM

Could this be presented in a format accessible to Plan 9 users?

-sl

[hiro]

When only half of the fields of your table have a meaning you're doing
something wrong. And nobody wants to learn motoric motions from some
stupid table.
Things like select are too trivial for this and Snarf can be left out
because essentially it's just the same as cutting and pasting
together.

Soon your pupils will ask you how you can cancel "select".

[Brian Vito]

On Apr 25, 7:26 am, ***@googlemail.com (hiro) wrote:
> When only half of the fields of your table have a meaning you're doing
> something wrong. And nobody wants to learn motoric motions from some
> stupid table.
> Things like select are too trivial for this and Snarf can be left out
> because essentially it's just the same as cutting and pasting
> together.
>
> Soon your pupils will ask you how you can cancel "select".

Thanks for the criticism. How would you put together the chart without
any empty fees? How do you suggest people learn motoric [sic] motions?
From stupid list? And how would you suggest expressing that button 1,
rather than two or three, selects? And that button 3 searches? Select
isn't trivial when there are three buttons. And While you know that
snarf is a cut/paste, how did you learn that? This chart is meant for
people who don't already know all the commands.

But thanks for your criticism. Next time, trying to be helpful would
be nice.

[s***@9front.org]

> But thanks for your criticism. Next time, trying to be helpful would
> be nice.

But how do Plan 9 users access this chart?

-sl

[David du Colombier]

> But how do Plan 9 users access this chart?

hget -o acme_chords.pdf 'https://doc-0o-3g-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/pub48giqvrap6he53h3mtl8q9g5nlvid/1335369600000/05011244667098227595/*/0B1QVUS-qAuuienlTMHdRYkFzSHM'

--
David du Colombier

[s***@9front.org]

>> But how do Plan 9 users access this chart?
>
> hget -o acme_chords.pdf 'https://doc-0o-3g-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/pub48giqvrap6he53h3mtl8q9g5nlvid/1335369600000/05011244667098227595/*/0B1QVUS-qAuuienlTMHdRYkFzSHM'

Thank you.

-sl

[Yaroslav]

not on the table: B2+B1 passes dot as arg to the cmd

[Gabriel Díaz López de la Llave]

hello

A plan9 user already knows how to work with the mouse. The document is for non-plan9 users that want to become one, so there is no problem for them to access it, they will have a compatible browser. Also, if they search the mail list (http://9fans.net/archive/) for information they will discover that some pieces of information are accesible from their current worlds.

Answering your question, I think there was someone who made the google client python program run under plan9. IIRC that tool was able to download documents or manage them somehow (https://developers.google.com/google-apps/spreadsheets/).

Also, 9front, a Plan9 variant developed by volunteers, includes (or can use) all the tools needed to run opera browser (linuxemu, x11, etc.), which probably can get to the document (http://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/screenshots).

DP9IK knew this. It´s strange that you didn´t, given your email address :P

gabi

PD: sorry for the http links, you might not be able to read them without javascript.
PDD: Brian Vito, i think there is a youtube video showing how to use the mouse in plan9 which migh be useful to you.
_______________________________________
From: 9fans-***@9fans.net [9fans-***@9fans.net] on behalf of ***@9front.org [***@9front.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 17:29
To: ***@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] Summary of acme chords

> But thanks for your criticism. Next time, trying to be helpful would
> be nice.

But how do Plan 9 users access this chart?

-sl

[Tom Lieber]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Tom Lieber <***@alltom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How would you put together the chart without any empty fees?
>
> This is how I've always visualized it:
>
>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>
> (incomplete because I ran out of time and had trouble interpreting the table :)

Just realized that despite my effort, I still typed "copy" instead of
"snarf." Ah, well.

--
Tom Lieber
http://AllTom.com/
http://infinite-sketchpad.com/

[Tom Lieber]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> How would you put together the chart without any empty fees?

This is how I've always visualized it:

http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png

(incomplete because I ran out of time and had trouble interpreting the table :)

--
Tom Lieber
http://AllTom.com/
http://infinite-sketchpad.com/

[andrey mirtchovski]

>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png

a suggestion?

http://i.imgur.com/hjFJa.png

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:34 PM, andrey mirtchovski
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>
> a suggestion?
>
> http://i.imgur.com/hjFJa.png
>

I really like this graphics and with the text they are even
better.

G.

[hiro]

This is the way, Tom Lieber's graphic is really great, I agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dopu3ZtdCsg

The Hello world is confusing though :D

[andrey mirtchovski]

> I really like this graphics and with the text they are even
> better.

i think it needs two lines of text per graph -- one for what's on
screen, one for the snarf buffer.

[Tom Lieber]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, andrey mirtchovski
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>
> a suggestion?
>
> http://i.imgur.com/hjFJa.png

I like that. It'd probably work better if 'cut' and 'paste' didn't
have the same 'select' as their root, so the example for paste could
start empty, or with different text.

--
Tom Lieber
http://AllTom.com/
http://infinite-sketchpad.com/

[david jeannot]

A bit off topic, but if some OS X users need a
mouse only for Acme, here is a patch to use Acme
without a mouse:

http://codereview.appspot.com/6115053

Once applied, Devdraw's manual (accessible from
the Help menu) will show the following:

On Mac OS X 10.6 or later, the following gestures are avail-
able for trackpad users:

2-finger-pinch to toggle fullscreen,
3-finger-swipe left to cut (cmd+x),
3-finger-swipe right to paste (cmd+v),
3-finger-swipe up to copy (cmd+c),
3-finger-swipe down to exec with arg (2-1 chord),
3-finger-tap to middle-click.

(Equivalent 2-finger swipe gestures are available for Magic
Mouse users.)

Swipe gestures will only be available if the system does not
use them. On OS X 10.7 for example, the default trackpad
configuration must be changed as follows:

swipe between pages with "2 or 3 fingers",
swipe up to Mission Control with 4 fingers.

I use this patch since many months, and I find
Acme even more fun than before. You can apply the
patch this way:

hget http://codereview.appspot.com/download/issue6115053_1.diff >
$HOME/Downloads/swipe.diff
hg -R $PLAN9 import --no-commit $HOME/Downloads/swipe.diff
cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/acme && mk install
cd $PLAN9/src/cmd/devdraw && mk install

If this patch conflicts with "hg pull -u" one day,
you will just have to run the following, to trash
all local changes:

hg -R $PLAN9 update -C

and apply an updated version of the patch.

This patch, that is just a hack, has been refused
at least for the following reasons: it is too
Acme-specific; it can require change to OS X
default conf.

[Martin Kühl]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 00:15, david jeannot <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> A bit off topic, but if some OS X users need a
> mouse only for Acme, here is a patch to use Acme
> without a mouse:
>
>           http://codereview.appspot.com/6115053

Or you could just use the trackpad and p9p mouse emulation:
- select text, keep the trackpad "button" pressed
- hit option to cut
- hit command to paste

It works surprisingly well.

[dexen deVries]

On Thursday 26 of April 2012 11:48:59 Martin Kühl wrote:
> Or you could just use the trackpad and p9p mouse emulation:
> - select text, keep the trackpad "button" pressed
> - hit option to cut
> - hit command to paste
>
> It works surprisingly well.


if your touchpad detects two- and three-finger touches (any Synaptics should
do), you can configure it for comfortable execution of Acme commands via touch
+ touchpad left/right button click.


--
dexen deVries

[david jeannot]

On 26 April 2012 11:48, Martin Kühl <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 00:15, david jeannot <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > A bit off topic, but if some OS X users need a
> > mouse only for Acme, here is a patch to use Acme
> > without a mouse:
> >
> >           http://codereview.appspot.com/6115053
>
> Or you could just use the trackpad and p9p mouse emulation:
> - select text, keep the trackpad "button" pressed
> - hit option to cut
> - hit command to paste
>
> It works surprisingly well.

(Yes, this is what I used before this patch, but I
couldn't do a 2-1 chord with this emulation,
making Acme useless for me. So I hacked Acme to
"exec with arg" with a 2-3 chord instead, and it
was OK. Then I had to replug a mouse, and found
Acme far more comfortable with a mouse than
without, so I made this patch.)

[Uriel]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:34 PM, andrey mirtchovski
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>
> a suggestion?
>
> http://i.imgur.com/hjFJa.png

Ah, that is even better, I added a different green to the held button,
and updated the version at: http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse

But now I'm thinking, the text under Select and Paste should not be
the same, unless you are pasting nothing or exactly the text you are
pasting over.

[andrey mirtchovski]

> But now I'm thinking, the text under Select and Paste should not be
> the same, unless you are pasting nothing or exactly the text you are
> pasting over.

it needs two entries at each vertex: one for the buffer, one for
what's on screen. then the paste becomes:

select:
scr: hwhw_hw_hwhw
buf: wh

paste:
scr: hwhw_wh_hwhw
buf: wh

where the underscored text is "selected".

[Uriel]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tom Lieber <***@alltom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How would you put together the chart without any empty fees?
>
> This is how I've always visualized it:
>
>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png

Thanks, this is a quite nice visualization, but i would keep the left
button in some shade of green on the paste, cut and copy pictures, to
indicate you should hold it.

In any case hope you are ok that I added it to http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse

Thanks again.

Uriel

[Tom Lieber]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Uriel <***@berlinblue.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tom Lieber <***@alltom.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How would you put together the chart without any empty fees?
>>
>> This is how I've always visualized it:
>>
>>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>
> Thanks, this is a quite nice visualization, but i would keep the left
> button in some shade of green on the paste, cut and copy pictures, to
> indicate you should hold it.
>
> In any case hope you are ok that I added it to http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse

That's fine. Great call on showing which buttons are held, actually…
Here's a version with that and a separate example for paste, which
helps the whole thing make sense sequentially:

http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords2.png

It has a transparent background which may or may not help on your site.

--
Tom Lieber
http://AllTom.com/
http://infinite-sketchpad.com/

[Akshat Kumar]

Shouldn't the top one be:

Select->Cut->Paste ?

The "Cut" does the snarfing.
There is no way (that I know)
to simply "Snarf" with a mouse.

Moreover, I feel that the top
two should be joined a the
"Select" vertex, like in the
original.

This is a great representation.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Tom Lieber <***@alltom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Uriel <***@berlinblue.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Tom Lieber <***@alltom.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Brian Vito <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> How would you put together the chart without any empty fees?
>>>
>>> This is how I've always visualized it:
>>>
>>>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords.png
>>
>> Thanks, this is a quite nice visualization, but i would keep the left
>> button in some shade of green on the paste, cut and copy pictures, to
>> indicate you should hold it.
>>
>> In any case hope you are ok that I added it to http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse
>
> That's fine. Great call on showing which buttons are held, actually…
> Here's a version with that and a separate example for paste, which
> helps the whole thing make sense sequentially:
>
>  http://alltom.com/files/misc/chords2.png
>
> It has a transparent background which may or may not help on your site.
>
> --
> Tom Lieber
> http://AllTom.com/
> http://infinite-sketchpad.com/
>

[Brian Vito]

On Apr 25, 7:26 am, ***@googlemail.com (hiro) wrote:
> When only half of the fields of your table have a meaning you're doing
> something wrong. And nobody wants to learn motoric motions from some
> stupid table.
> Things like select are too trivial for this and Snarf can be left out
> because essentially it's just the same as cutting and pasting
> together.
>
> Soon your pupils will ask you how you can cancel "select".

If you don't find it to be helpful, you could suggest a better way of
presenting the information, rather than referring to it as a "stupid"
table. How did you learn this information -- from a "stupid" textual
list?

[hiro]

> How did you learn this information -- from a "stupid" textual
> list?

No, from a youtube vid. There were these nice mouse button graphics
accompaning the screencast like later in the thread.

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

plus I think the man page describes it quite well. IIRC.

--
using ipad keyboard. excuse any typos.


On Apr 25, 2012, at 9:19 PM, hiro <***@googlemail.com> wrote:

>> How did you learn this information -- from a "stupid" textual
>> list?
>
> No, from a youtube vid. There were these nice mouse button graphics
> accompaning the screencast like later in the thread.

[Christian Neukirchen]

***@9front.org writes:

>> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1QVUS-qAuuienlTMHdRYkFzSHM
>
> Could this be presented in a format accessible to Plan 9 users?

.TS
box, tab(:);
l | l l l l.
:b1 left:b2 middle:b3 right:cancel
_
select
execute::::b2 right
search::::b2 middle
_
cut:first:second::b3 right
snarf:first:second:third
paste:first::second:b2 middle
.TE

--
Christian Neukirchen <***@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org

[Peter A. Cejchan]

.TS
box, tab(:);
l | l l l l.
:b1 left:b2 middle:b3 right:cancel
_
select:x:::
execute::x::b3 right
search:::x:b2 middle
_
cut:first:second::b3 right
snarf:first:second:third
paste:first::second:b2 middle
.TE


On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Christian Neukirchen <
***@gmail.com> wrote:

> ***@9front.org writes:
>
> >> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1QVUS-qAuuienlTMHdRYkFzSHM
> >
> > Could this be presented in a format accessible to Plan 9 users?
>
> .TS
> box, tab(:);
> l | l l l l.
> :b1 left:b2 middle:b3 right:cancel
> _
> select
> execute::::b2 right
> search::::b2 middle
> _
> cut:first:second::b3 right
> snarf:first:second:third
> paste:first::second:b2 middle
> .TE
>
> --
> Christian Neukirchen <***@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org
>
>