Discussion:
[9fans] bell-labs website and plan9
(too old to reply)
pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
2007-04-05 19:46:10 UTC
Permalink
why the www.bell-labs.com doesnt talks too much about plan9 (I, really, dont
know if it talks about it, i never found anything about it there).

Anyone knows?
John Floren
2007-04-05 21:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
why the www.bell-labs.com doesnt talks too much about plan9 (I, really, dont
know if it talks about it, i never found anything about it there).
Anyone knows?
Because they have other fish to fry? I don't know for sure, but it
seems like Bell Labs/Lucent doesn't really do anything with Plan 9
these days except host the server.
Can somebody clue us in on this? Maybe one of the earlier coders can
give some info?
Thanks

John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
g***@plan9.bell-labs.com
2007-04-05 21:59:46 UTC
Permalink
it seems like Bell Labs/Lucent doesn't really do anything with Plan
9 these days except host the server.
You obviously haven't done a replica/pull lately. ☺
Benn Newman
2007-04-09 14:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@plan9.bell-labs.com
it seems like Bell Labs/Lucent doesn't really do anything with Plan
9 these days except host the server.
You obviously haven't done a replica/pull lately. ☺
It would be really nice if you made a ChangeLog or used patch(1) so
the rest of us could easil
Kris Maglione
2007-04-09 23:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ron minnich
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it.
I'd think that it would be practically a no-op, but I'm not sure of hg's
locking semantics. I'd say that it would be a very good idea to support
cpu and ssh, though, since ssh uses a separate protocol which should be
significantly faster than just doing the work over 9P. Again, I'm not
sure of the details.
--
Kris Maglione

There's no time like the present for postponing
what you don't want to do.
ron minnich
2007-04-10 00:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Maglione
I'd say that it would be a very good idea to support
cpu and ssh, though, since ssh uses a separate protocol which should be
significantly faster than just doing the work over 9P.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. But, that said, I will
try to see what hg will want ...

BTW, I do recommend that you all take a look at Xen 3 and Plan 9. I
just needed to check something out and having a plan 9 instance up and
running in 6 seconds is really, really nice.

Thanks

ron
erik quanstrom
2007-04-10 00:22:01 UTC
Permalink
i don't understand why ssh "using a seperate protocol" implies that it should
be significantly faster than 9p. could you explain why you think this?
Post by Kris Maglione
Post by ron minnich
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it.
I'd think that it would be practically a no-op, but I'm not sure of hg's
locking semantics. I'd say that it would be a very good idea to support
cpu and ssh, though, since ssh uses a separate protocol which should be
significantly faster than just doing the work over 9P. Again, I'm not
sure of the details.
Uriel
2007-04-10 00:42:16 UTC
Permalink
One word: latency.

By the way, is anyone working on the solutions to the latency problem
we discussed at IWP9? I know nemo has a somewhat different solution
with OP but I still would like to see something backwards compatible
with existing 9P.

uriel
Post by erik quanstrom
i don't understand why ssh "using a seperate protocol" implies that it should
be significantly faster than 9p. could you explain why you think this?
Post by Kris Maglione
Post by ron minnich
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it.
I'd think that it would be practically a no-op, but I'm not sure of hg's
locking semantics. I'd say that it would be a very good idea to support
cpu and ssh, though, since ssh uses a separate protocol which should be
significantly faster than just doing the work over 9P. Again, I'm not
sure of the details.
Francisco J Ballesteros
2007-04-10 07:59:44 UTC
Permalink
The way it's done is backwards compatible in the sense that no app/fs knows
that anyone is speaking Op. All our tools speak styx, and the inferno
kernel/emu is
the client of choice. Op is used to brigde separate islands so that
nobody else has
to care.
Post by Uriel
One word: latency.
By the way, is anyone working on the solutions to the latency problem
we discussed at IWP9? I know nemo has a somewhat different solution
with OP but I still would like to see something backwards compatible
with existing 9P.
uriel
Post by erik quanstrom
i don't understand why ssh "using a seperate protocol" implies that it should
be significantly faster than 9p. could you explain why you think this?
Post by Kris Maglione
Post by ron minnich
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it.
I'd think that it would be practically a no-op, but I'm not sure of hg's
locking semantics. I'd say that it would be a very good idea to support
cpu and ssh, though, since ssh uses a separate protocol which should be
significantly faster than just doing the work over 9P. Again, I'm not
sure of the details.
Kris Maglione
2007-04-10 01:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by erik quanstrom
i don't understand why ssh "using a seperate protocol" implies that it should
be significantly faster than 9p. could you explain why you think this?
I don't know the specifics, but I do know that there is a protocol used
for HTTP and SSH which are designed to speed up operations on the
repository. I think it relates to the fact that parsing the FS would
require many synchronous round-trips which would be faster locally. I
believe that the paper elaborates.
--
Kris Maglione

When you need to knock on wood is when you realize the
world's composed of aluminum and vinyl.
W B Hacker
2007-04-05 21:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
why the www.bell-labs.com doesnt talks too much about plan9 (I, really, dont
know if it talks about it, i never found anything about it there).
Anyone knows?
Dunno why you are having trouble finding it.

First hit Google produces, out of 'about 2,130,000' should lead you to the rest:

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/

Bill
pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
2007-04-05 21:36:50 UTC
Permalink
i wasnt talk about this.
i just want to know why in the bell-labs website
www.bell-labs.com
there arent anything about plan9 (if there are, they are almost nothing)
Fazlul Shahriar
2007-04-05 21:50:19 UTC
Permalink
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4y38DIESYGZzgH6kShiBvGOCJEgfW99X4_83FT9AP2C3NCIckdHRQA0CwaZ/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82X0FfNDdE

scroll to the bottom. It's there, just hidden somewhere.

fhs
pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
2007-04-05 21:52:44 UTC
Permalink
nice
W B Hacker
2007-04-05 21:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Floren
Post by pedro henrique antunes de oliveira
why the www.bell-labs.com doesnt talks too much about plan9 (I, really, dont
know if it talks about it, i never found anything about it there).
Anyone knows?
Because they have other fish to fry? I don't know for sure, but it
seems like Bell Labs/Lucent doesn't really do anything with Plan 9
these days except host the server.
Can somebody clue us in on this? Maybe one of the earlier coders can
give some info?
Thanks
John
The life-cycle is explained on the website:

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs

http://www.vitanuova.com/company/background.html

Bill
erik quanstrom
2007-04-09 15:02:50 UTC
Permalink
I've been asking uriel to write an rc script for me to run, but he
doesn't seem to want to. The premise is to parse output of
replica/pull and provide diff -c output for all changed non-binary
files. He doesn't seem to want to do this because he says he doesn't
like how replica/pull [doesn't] work.
what do you mean by this?

- erik
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 15:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by erik quanstrom
I've been asking uriel to write an rc script for me to run, but he
doesn't seem to want to. The premise is to parse output of
replica/pull and provide diff -c output for all changed non-binary
files. He doesn't seem to want to do this because he says he doesn't
like how replica/pull [doesn't] work.
what do you mean by this?
``I don't know'' and I don't really care either. Apparently he doesn't
like that it takes forever and that it has the habit of wiping things
out sometimes. That's my understanding of his explanation, anyway.

I'd rather not go down this thread though because I don't really want
to talk about why this work isn't happening, but rather what can be
done to make it happen and actually getting it done.
Post by erik quanstrom
- erik
--dho
erik quanstrom
2007-04-09 15:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Post by erik quanstrom
what do you mean by this?
``I don't know'' and I don't really care either. Apparently he doesn't
like that it takes forever and that it has the habit of wiping things
out sometimes. That's my understanding of his explanation, anyway.
I'd rather not go down this thread though because I don't really want
to talk about why this work isn't happening, but rather what can be
done to make it happen and actually getting it done.
rather a worked-up response for a simple question.

for the record, i think many people on this list are interested in
fixing things. if this is a pet project of yours, why don't you work
on fixing it? unfortunately, i don't have very much spare time right now.
there are drivers to write.

i have also noticed that replica/applylog has a problem. when i started
experimenting with copying history from our old fileserver to the new
one, i started using replica/updatedb and replica/applylog. updatedb
worked very well, but applylog hung for me pretty consistantly.

my thought was that applylog has a threading deadlock, but i didn't spent
much time thinking about it. one thing that does help quite a bit is to use
replica/compactdb on your local database. that is in /dist/replica/plan9.db.

- erik
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 15:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by erik quanstrom
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Post by erik quanstrom
what do you mean by this?
``I don't know'' and I don't really care either. Apparently he doesn't
like that it takes forever and that it has the habit of wiping things
out sometimes. That's my understanding of his explanation, anyway.
I'd rather not go down this thread though because I don't really want
to talk about why this work isn't happening, but rather what can be
done to make it happen and actually getting it done.
rather a worked-up response for a simple question.
I didn't mean to come across as inflamed or sarcastic, rather to imply
that I don't really care what Uriel's complaints are about because
they don't address the issue. Also, my experience with this list is
that tangents like this end up going off into oblivion with no
resolution and I don't want that to happen for this issue. So again,
apologies if I seemed worked up or irritated; that wasn't the
intention.
Post by erik quanstrom
for the record, i think many people on this list are interested in
fixing things. if this is a pet project of yours, why don't you work
on fixing it? unfortunately, i don't have very much spare time right now.
there are drivers to write.
I was originally trying to get Uriel to put his code where his mouth
is (or at least where it used to be). And I'm trying to work on fixing
it -- right now by analyzing what has been said and done in the past,
since this is certainly not a new `issue'. If there are already
utilities to grab diffs like this and / or a means to send diffs in
the mail, that would be an easy and ideal solution and would save time
:).

I know that discussing it to death on a mailing list is more on the
wasting time scale and if I think it starts getting to that point,
I'll just quit and write my own stuff to do it. (And to some degree, I
already am with vcs)
Post by erik quanstrom
i have also noticed that replica/applylog has a problem. when i started
experimenting with copying history from our old fileserver to the new
one, i started using replica/updatedb and replica/applylog. updatedb
worked very well, but applylog hung for me pretty consistantly.
my thought was that applylog has a threading deadlock, but i didn't spent
much time thinking about it. one thing that does help quite a bit is to use
replica/compactdb on your local database. that is in /dist/replica/plan9.db.
- erik
I've only just started getting into the replica code, so I'm not sure
what this would be indicative of (I'm sure your understanding is far
better than mine). So maybe to go further down that path (and I would
_love_ to get input from Bell Labs people because they're really the
ones that have the power to yay or nay any of this), is replica/*
still an ideal manner for getting updates? Are there potentially
better ways to do this?

--dho
ron minnich
2007-04-09 15:23:17 UTC
Permalink
possibly inflammatory question: the ideas I've seen proposed so far
don't seem superior in any way to, e.g., mercurial.

Please note, I am sorry if this letter sounds offensive, I do not
intend it to be.

If, somehow, the proposed ideas represent a huge leap in 'something',
it would be nice to know what 'something' is; I'm not getting it from
the descriptions. So far, it all sounds like a bit of a kludge to
cover for our lack of tools and time to build them.

If, instead, the proposed ideas are more of the usual "There is a
better non-Plan 9 system but we don't run it because we (a) can't
compile it (b) don't have software to run it (c) we didn't invent it
(i.e. NIH)", well, then, it's time to start bringing those better
systems in, and put our efforts elsewhere.

My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it. We've got python, almost. We've just about got
python modules -- actually, I've had them for months. Lots of bits
work that did not used to. We really are pretty close.

Take the best of both worlds, in other words, and create something
new. But, if you can take other's good work, that can be a timesaver.

thanks

ron
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 15:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ron minnich
possibly inflammatory question: the ideas I've seen proposed so far
don't seem superior in any way to, e.g., mercurial.
Please note, I am sorry if this letter sounds offensive, I do not
intend it to be.
If, somehow, the proposed ideas represent a huge leap in 'something',
it would be nice to know what 'something' is; I'm not getting it from
the descriptions. So far, it all sounds like a bit of a kludge to
cover for our lack of tools and time to build them.
If, instead, the proposed ideas are more of the usual "There is a
better non-Plan 9 system but we don't run it because we (a) can't
compile it (b) don't have software to run it (c) we didn't invent it
(i.e. NIH)", well, then, it's time to start bringing those better
systems in, and put our efforts elsewhere.
That's in part what vcs is supposed to be, but I don't think it's
really going to be good for anything other than small projects any
time soon. I've asked you several times off-list about the status of
Python and hg and getting these to work, but I haven't received a
response yet, so I don't know if you got them. I got hg partially
working, but then ran into dependencies on signal handlers and didn't
take the time to remove them / change them to use Notes. Any
information on the hg status and how one can help with that would be
nice.
Post by ron minnich
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it. We've got python, almost. We've just about got
python modules -- actually, I've had them for months. Lots of bits
work that did not used to. We really are pretty close.
Take the best of both worlds, in other words, and create something
new. But, if you can take other's good work, that can be a timesaver.
thanks
ron
As far as an SCM goes, it would be nice to have one, but I'm sure it
has to run in Plan 9. The big problem that I have with hg and my own
vcs is that neither is really suited for maintaining multiple
branches. At this point, vcs is small and incomplete enough to make
this doable, but it's going to be way too slow anyway. And it's not
going to be in a complete enough state to manage an OS for quite some
time to come, either.

--dho
ron minnich
2007-04-09 18:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
I've asked you several times off-list about the status of
Python and hg and getting these to work, but I haven't received a
response yet, so I don't know if you got them.
I owe you an apology for that ... I'm sorry. What I've been trying to
do is find a way to apply $$$ to someone to
1) get my python stuff reworked in a more correct fashion
2) get the work done to put that code back in the mainstream.

This has not happened as soon as I might have hoped, because everyone
is (always) overworked.

I have put my python work to date at 9grid.net, I think this is it,
tell me if I screwed up!
http://9grid.net/magic/webls?dir=/rminnich/src

(and we should all ask andrey and aki to give us webls ... :-)
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Any
information on the hg status and how one can help with that would be
nice.
status: For Hg, I needed ssh2. We don't have it. So I got
paramiko-tools. It needed pycrypto. I got those. Pycrypto needed
multiple fixes to the Python port, which I made; I got the pycrypto
stuff to actually work. (and, along the way, realized that Python
plays C tricks that ought not to be played, but that's another story
... these Python C tricks required me to hack things so that
type-safety was set to "OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF") Then I prepared to
release it. Then I realized, that, me releasing crypto would be a
*really* *stupid* thing to do, given where I work and the state of
export control and so on and so forth. SO, ... I stopped.

Then you made me realize that I was being stupid, and should have
thought of Hg port in terms of file trees, not ssh, and now I have to
go look at this again. On plan 9, if you don't first do these tools
with either file trees or 9p, you are being dumb, and I was being dumb
in not thinking in those terms.

But, we still really need an ssh2 transport, at some point, because
that's what The Rest of The World, in their blindness, uses for most
of their Hg repos.
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
As far as an SCM goes, it would be nice to have one, but I'm sure it
has to run in Plan 9. The big problem that I have with hg and my own
vcs is that neither is really suited for maintaining multiple
branches.
Are you sure about Hg in this case? The xen tree is about the size of
the plan 9 kernel, for sure, and maybe all of /sys/src, and there are
lots of Xen trees out there. I have not used Hg enough to say, but my
observation is that it has worked well for xen in distributed repo
mode.

Thanks, and sorry I was so uncommunicative on the python stuff.

ron
g***@plan9.bell-labs.com
2007-04-09 18:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Everybody should have webls; it's
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/ip/httpd/webls.c and
/n/sources/plan9/386/bin/ip/httpd/webls.
andrey mirtchovski
2007-04-09 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
as far as i remember webls was written by dan cross.

the non-standard thing of 9grid's httpd is the use of full regular
expressions in its rewrite file as well as other minor tweaks.
ron minnich
2007-04-09 21:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrey mirtchovski
as far as i remember webls was written by dan cross.
the non-standard thing of 9grid's httpd is the use of full regular
expressions in its rewrite file as well as other minor tweaks.
Sorry, I was confused; but AFAIK the "andrey/aki version" has some
nice features. Can they be included in the distro?

thanks

ron
Paweł Lasek
2007-04-09 22:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ron minnich
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
As far as an SCM goes, it would be nice to have one, but I'm sure it
has to run in Plan 9. The big problem that I have with hg and my own
vcs is that neither is really suited for maintaining multiple
branches.
Are you sure about Hg in this case? The xen tree is about the size of
the plan 9 kernel, for sure, and maybe all of /sys/src, and there are
lots of Xen trees out there. I have not used Hg enough to say, but my
observation is that it has worked well for xen in distributed repo
mode.
AFAIK, Sun moves the whole OpenSolaris tree (kernel, userspace, docs,
EVERYTHING) into Mercurial. They IIRC use "forest" add-on to manage
multiple trees (for different parts of the system) at once.

I think Hg with it's tree backed up into Venti would be great thing to have :-)

And for big projects... I heard something about Vesta, but judging
from the webpage it's really complex system and Unix only.
Post by ron minnich
ron
--
Paul Lasek
erik quanstrom
2007-04-09 15:36:05 UTC
Permalink
available? It'd save me some time and effort trying to figure out how
to revert a replica/pull.
Speaking of which, how _does_ one replica/pull to a previous date?
--dho
there are lots of ways to do this, but a particular senerio would be helpful.
for example, if you wanted to pull only up to date x, then you could just edit
the log and delete entries that come later. you can always mount sourcesdump
and either copy or mount what you'd like if you have a problem with a particular
package.

- erik
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 15:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by erik quanstrom
available? It'd save me some time and effort trying to figure out how
to revert a replica/pull.
Speaking of which, how _does_ one replica/pull to a previous date?
--dho
there are lots of ways to do this, but a particular senerio would be helpful.
for example, if you wanted to pull only up to date x, then you could just edit
the log and delete entries that come later. you can always mount sourcesdump
and either copy or mount what you'd like if you have a problem with a particular
package.
- erik
The scenario being, I want to test my hypothetical replica/applylog
action parser / diff generator. I run pull, which grabs stuff, but
I've made changes to xyz.c and that file doesn't get modified because
of local changes. So I want to roll back my log so I can run pull
again with -s /sys/src/cmd/xyz.c

This wouldn't be an issue if we added a '*' option to replica/pull for
the -c and -s flags. But I'll send a patch for that shortly and see if
that gets committed.

--dho
Martin Neubauer
2007-04-09 16:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
The scenario being, I want to test my hypothetical replica/applylog
action parser / diff generator. I run pull, which grabs stuff, but
I've made changes to xyz.c and that file doesn't get modified because
of local changes. So I want to roll back my log so I can run pull
again with -s /sys/src/cmd/xyz.c
This wouldn't be an issue if we added a '*' option to replica/pull for
the -c and -s flags. But I'll send a patch for that shortly and see if
that gets committed.
--dho
I'm not sure how serious that really is. You can always run ``pull -n''
(actually, I regularly do); and if you positively want to replace every
locally modified file you can pipe the output through some trivial awk.

Martin
Russ Cox
2007-04-09 15:52:45 UTC
Permalink
One thing that this will need is support for a '*' target for -s (and
I guess for -c, too, just for consistency) to replica/applylog. I have
a patch for this, and I'll submit it shortly. This flag would make
applylog ignore all client-side (or server-side) changes, though I
suppose the latter is already possible.
Since the arguments to -c and -s are just string prefixes, you
can use -c '' or -s '' already. I admit it is non-standard.

However, you'd be better off not using replica/pull as
the input to a differ, but instead using replica's change file
/n/sources/plan9/dist/replica/plan9.log. Replica(8) describes
the format:

A replica is further described on the server by a textual
log listing creation and deletion of files and changes to
file contents and metadata. Each line is of the form:

time gen verb path serverpath mode uid gid mtime length

The time and gen fields are both decimal numbers, providing
an ordering for log entries so that incremental tools need
not process the whole log each time they are run. The verb,
a single character, describes the event: addition of a file
(a), deletion of a file (d), a change to a file's contents
(c), or a change to a file's metadata (m). Path is the file
path on the client; serverpath the path on the server (these
are different when the optional fifth field in a proto file
line is given; see proto(2)). Mode, uid, gid, and mtime are
the files metadata as in the Dir structure (see stat(5)).
For deletion events, the metadata is that of the deleted
file. For other events, the metadata is that after the
event.

It would be easiest to pick the two most recent dumps in
/n/sourcesdump, diff the plan9.log files to pick out the
new lines, and then run diffs between the two different
dump roots. This is what we used to do when we (I) annotated
all the changes to produce /n/sources/extra/changes.
But it was far too much work to do the annotations and
not enough people cared, so we stopped that particular
experiment.
i have also noticed that replica/applylog has a problem. when i started
experimenting with copying history from our old fileserver to the new
one, i started using replica/updatedb and replica/applylog. updatedb
worked very well, but applylog hung for me pretty consistantly.
Did you ever use acid to get a stack trace from the `hung' applylogs?
The only threading in applylog is an implementation of something
like fcp to copy files using multiple outstanding 9P read requests.
Since no one else seems to have had problems, I would guess that
there were just some requests that made your file server thrash.
But stack traces would make the answer very clear.
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it. We've got python, almost. We've just about got
python modules -- actually, I've had them for months. Lots of bits
work that did not used to. We really are pretty close.
Echoing Ron, I think having Mercurial would be great and doable.
If someone makes a Mercurial client work, I will be happy to make
a Mercurial repository that mirrors sources automatically.

Also echoing Ron, a venti-based SCM sounds similar to git,
which is an SCM built on top of a hash-addressed object store
(that happens not to be named venti). It would be nice to know
you're not reinventing git, especially since in my experience
the fact that git is hash-addressed makes many things a lot
harder and slower (although I am sure it has advantages).
In fact, I seem to recall the last time Uriel was yelling about this
on the list, Russ offered to do exactly this. Is this offer still
available? It'd save me some time and effort trying to figure out how
to revert a replica/pull.
I put a copy of the script we used to use in
/n/sources/contrib/rsc/makemail. Use at your own risk.
It probably deserves to be rewritten in a better language.
So maybe to go further down that path (and I would
_love_ to get input from Bell Labs people because they're really the
ones that have the power to yay or nay any of this), is replica/*
still an ideal manner for getting updates? Are there potentially
better ways to do this?
There are things that replica doesn't do very well. I wish you
could tell it to back up, or to back out local changes, and so on,
but the core functionality works well, and I would be wary of
falling into the CADT Model trap (ask Google).
The scenario being, I want to test my hypothetical replica/applylog
action parser / diff generator. I run pull, which grabs stuff, but
I've made changes to xyz.c and that file doesn't get modified because
of local changes. So I want to roll back my log so I can run pull
again with -s /sys/src/cmd/xyz.c
Your thinking is stuck in the maze of twisty little passages
that is modern Unix and its version control systems.
Replica is a file distribution mechanism, not a version
control system.

On Plan 9, one would do this with the dump file system.
9fs sourcesdump and look around -- you've got all the info
there you could possibly want to produce diffs. You don't
even need to copy anything to your local machine.

Russ
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 16:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russ Cox
One thing that this will need is support for a '*' target for -s (and
I guess for -c, too, just for consistency) to replica/applylog. I have
a patch for this, and I'll submit it shortly. This flag would make
applylog ignore all client-side (or server-side) changes, though I
suppose the latter is already possible.
Since the arguments to -c and -s are just string prefixes, you
can use -c '' or -s '' already. I admit it is non-standard.
Ah, ok. I did a cursory glance over the matching code and ISTR it
using strcmp so I assumed it was a full match. In this case, I'll send
a patch for the manpage describing this (after I read it again and
determine that I didn't just miss something).
Post by Russ Cox
However, you'd be better off not using replica/pull as
the input to a differ, but instead using replica's change file
/n/sources/plan9/dist/replica/plan9.log. Replica(8) describes
[snip]
It would be easiest to pick the two most recent dumps in
/n/sourcesdump, diff the plan9.log files to pick out the
new lines, and then run diffs between the two different
dump roots. This is what we used to do when we (I) annotated
all the changes to produce /n/sources/extra/changes.
But it was far too much work to do the annotations and
not enough people cared, so we stopped that particular
experiment.
I'll look into this. It does indeed seem to be a much more achievable goal.
Post by Russ Cox
[snip: not for me]
My take is that bringing in mercurial, and then using mercurial with
mounted file systems, instead of ssh, would be quite neat. And, we are
close to having it. We've got python, almost. We've just about got
python modules -- actually, I've had them for months. Lots of bits
work that did not used to. We really are pretty close.
Echoing Ron, I think having Mercurial would be great and doable.
If someone makes a Mercurial client work, I will be happy to make
a Mercurial repository that mirrors sources automatically.
Well, I prefer to not duplicate work, and the Python that I get from
Ron's website needs coaxing to build. Also, after doing that, setup.py
needed extra modules compiled in to the config. After that, it
setup.py needed the signal modules and that's when I got fed up. If
there's a Python port that builds a working python when I type `mk',
I'll start looking at it again, but I even had to edit the mkfile to
add the -x flag to 8l so it would do the dynamic linking magic.

I would be glad to work on getting this done, but I get the feeling
from Ron's postings that the code he has working is different than the
code I got from him. Ron: if you could clarify this for me, I'd really
appreciate it, because I'd definitely like to get the ball rolling on
this subject.
Post by Russ Cox
Also echoing Ron, a venti-based SCM sounds similar to git,
which is an SCM built on top of a hash-addressed object store
(that happens not to be named venti). It would be nice to know
you're not reinventing git, especially since in my experience
the fact that git is hash-addressed makes many things a lot
harder and slower (although I am sure it has advantages).
I may be. I have never used git, and probably never will. I'm actually
trying to make something that is more similar to Perforce, but I'm not
sure that this is possible with doing what I'm doing using a vac
backend. Right now it's more experimental. If anybody would like to
use it for anything, what I currently have in
/n/sources/contrib/dho/vcs _does_ work for all intents and purposes,
it's just incomplete. However, I think 90% of the groundwork is there.
Post by Russ Cox
In fact, I seem to recall the last time Uriel was yelling about this
on the list, Russ offered to do exactly this. Is this offer still
available? It'd save me some time and effort trying to figure out how
to revert a replica/pull.
I put a copy of the script we used to use in
/n/sources/contrib/rsc/makemail. Use at your own risk.
It probably deserves to be rewritten in a better language.
I will take a look at this.
Post by Russ Cox
So maybe to go further down that path (and I would
_love_ to get input from Bell Labs people because they're really the
ones that have the power to yay or nay any of this), is replica/*
still an ideal manner for getting updates? Are there potentially
better ways to do this?
There are things that replica doesn't do very well. I wish you
could tell it to back up, or to back out local changes, and so on,
but the core functionality works well, and I would be wary of
falling into the CADT Model trap (ask Google).
Right, I did ask Google just now, and that makes sense. It is a valid
worry. I guess that the issue is that we currently sort of use replica
for distributing versions of our system, and, as you say below, it's
not a version control utility. More below.
Post by Russ Cox
The scenario being, I want to test my hypothetical replica/applylog
action parser / diff generator. I run pull, which grabs stuff, but
I've made changes to xyz.c and that file doesn't get modified because
of local changes. So I want to roll back my log so I can run pull
again with -s /sys/src/cmd/xyz.c
Your thinking is stuck in the maze of twisty little passages
that is modern Unix and its version control systems.
Replica is a file distribution mechanism, not a version
control system.
Well, the problem is that replica/pull won't update a file if it has
already found a conflict. (At least, I couldn't get it to earlier). I
will try re-retrieving with -s ''; I guess my question is whether I
should expect this to work. Specific example, /sys/src/cmd/ip/ping.c
was modified for my hushping patch, but pull didn't grab it because I
had modified the copy there. If I run pull again with -s '', will it
get that file this time?

However, as I said, we do use replica to keep systems `up to date', so
we do have some sort of versioned mentality in its usage. But it would
be nice to actually have some sort of SCM (hg, vcs, cvs or
what-have-you) as an option as well.
Post by Russ Cox
On Plan 9, one would do this with the dump file system.
9fs sourcesdump and look around -- you've got all the info
there you could possibly want to produce diffs. You don't
even need to copy anything to your local machine.
I'll follow your earlier advice for diff generation and take a look at
your makemail script.
Post by Russ Cox
Russ
Thanks for the information; it seems rather useful.

--dho
Russ Cox
2007-04-09 17:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
should expect this to work. Specific example, /sys/src/cmd/ip/ping.c
was modified for my hushping patch, but pull didn't grab it because I
had modified the copy there. If I run pull again with -s '', will it
get that file this time?
You get one override per line in plan9.log.
If you have already run replica -c sys/src/cmd/ip/ping.c,
then future pulls will not worry about the change that
just happened. Future changes will make new conflicts
that you'll have to resolve. If you haven't done that,
then you can still run pull -s sys/src/cmd/ip/ping.c
and will get the new one.

Russ
Uriel
2007-04-09 17:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russ Cox
This is what we used to do when we (I) annotated
all the changes to produce /n/sources/extra/changes.
But it was far too much work to do the annotations and
not enough people cared, so we stopped that particular
experiment.
There are 75 people subscribed to the plan9changes[1] mailing list, is
that not enough people that care?

uriel

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/plan9changes
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 17:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uriel
Post by Russ Cox
This is what we used to do when we (I) annotated
all the changes to produce /n/sources/extra/changes.
But it was far too much work to do the annotations and
not enough people cared, so we stopped that particular
experiment.
There are 75 people subscribed to the plan9changes[1] mailing list, is
that not enough people that care?
Can we not go down this road? I'm offering to take up maintaining
/n/sources/extra/changes for the People Who Do. Arguing about the past
isn't going to help us progress into the future.
Post by Uriel
uriel
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/plan9changes
--dho
Uriel
2007-04-09 17:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Post by Uriel
There are 75 people subscribed to the plan9changes[1] mailing list, is
that not enough people that care?
Can we not go down this road? I'm offering to take up maintaining
/n/sources/extra/changes for the People Who Do. Arguing about the past
isn't going to help us progress into the future.
I am not arguing about the past, but I don't like people rewriting
history, if russ didn't want to keep updating the changelog, that is
fine, it was nice that he did it for a while, and it is his choice how
he spends his time; but claiming that nobody cared is ridiculous.

And I am pointing how many people care right now. If you or anyone is
going to maintain /n/sources/extra/changes, that will be really
fantastic and will make many people happy.

Of course, I don't think this is the right way to do things, the
easiest and most useful way to do it is for the person who makes the
change to writes down what the change is supposed to do, but I guess
this is a crazy suggestion in the Plan 9 universe.

An hg port would be very useful, and I would not mind if Plan 9 used
to maintain its codebase and distribute changes (I don't like replica,
you can check 9fans archives for some of the reasons, but in short: it
is slow, unreliable, and awkward to use.)

Once we find out if the code ron put in 9grid.net (now mirrored in
sources) is the latest, I might try to help dho get python and hg
running on Plan 9. Dho and me are still waiting to hear back from ron
about this after many unanswered private emails.

It also would be nice if ron and the other LANL folks could reveal
(and release) the state of their gcc port.

Best wishes

uriel
ron minnich
2007-04-09 18:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uriel
It also would be nice if ron and the other LANL folks could reveal
(and release) the state of their gcc port.
Sorry about that. What's at 9grid.net is the latest from me.

Note that I am no longer at LANL, but am at Sandia Labs in livermore, ca.

Gee, is there a CA-based plan 9 user's group?

ron
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-09 18:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ron minnich
Post by Uriel
It also would be nice if ron and the other LANL folks could reveal
(and release) the state of their gcc port.
Sorry about that. What's at 9grid.net is the latest from me.
Note that I am no longer at LANL, but am at Sandia Labs in livermore, ca.
Gee, is there a CA-based plan 9 user's group?
There was last year when I lived there. I'm in New York now :(
Post by ron minnich
ron
Christopher Nielsen
2007-04-09 23:05:21 UTC
Permalink
if there isn't, we should start one. i am in san francisco.
though, i am about to depart for fire season, but i'll be back some
time in november.
Post by ron minnich
Gee, is there a CA-based plan 9 user's group?
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Lawrence E. Bakst
2007-04-09 23:43:12 UTC
Permalink
All,

I am interested as well. I'm in the Silicon Valley area.

leb
Post by Christopher Nielsen
if there isn't, we should start one. i am in san francisco.
though, i am about to depart for fire season, but i'll be back some
time in november.
Post by ron minnich
Gee, is there a CA-based plan 9 user's group?
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
erik quanstrom
2007-04-09 16:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russ Cox
Post by erik quanstrom
i have also noticed that replica/applylog has a problem. when i started
experimenting with copying history from our old fileserver to the new
one, i started using replica/updatedb and replica/applylog. updatedb
worked very well, but applylog hung for me pretty consistantly.
Did you ever use acid to get a stack trace from the `hung' applylogs?
The only threading in applylog is an implementation of something
like fcp to copy files using multiple outstanding 9P read requests.
Since no one else seems to have had problems, I would guess that
there were just some requests that made your file server thrash.
But stack traces would make the answer very clear.
i apologize for not having a backtrace, they looked uninformative at the
time. what i rememer was that applylog was not doing any i/o at the time.
(unless it was reading the same blocks over and over.)
in once instance, applylog had the same /proc/$pid/fd for 4 hrs
and generated no system load at all. the

one problem i do see that was not my case (i was working on two successive
days from the dump) is that there is no maximum number
of tries to keep a file from changing underfoot. a log file competing with
a slow link could be problematic.

restarting it where it left off (with an initial line number) generally
fixed the problem. i didn't mention it at the time because i
didn't get to the bottom of the problem.

i'll try to recreate the problem with a backtrace, but anyone else is welcome
to beat me to it.

- erik
matt
2007-04-09 16:48:08 UTC
Permalink
I don't know which bits are missing from Ron's port but the PyPy.org
project has been making a pure python version of python.

I've been using bits of it on Nokia Series 60 Python which says it's 2.2
but doesn't have all the 2.2 libs [such as Pickle, collections, mutex]),
still no crypt though, so no using Newsham's py9p

The other plan 9 python is 2.2 also
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/extra/python.iso.bz2

Just FYI
ron minnich
2007-04-10 00:13:30 UTC
Permalink
I can see if sandia can make a meeting room available, but at the same
time, we're out in the sticks as far as Si valley is concerned. What's
a good way to do this?

thanks

ron
Roman Shaposhnick
2007-04-10 21:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Me too! Me too! ;-)

Thanks,
Roman.
Post by ron minnich
I can see if sandia can make a meeting room available, but at the same
time, we're out in the sticks as far as Si valley is concerned. What's
a good way to do this?
thanks
ron
Micah Stetson
2007-04-10 22:26:29 UTC
Permalink
I'm interested as well, though I'm a few hours north and wouldn't be
able to attend very often.

Micah
ron minnich
2007-04-10 23:33:54 UTC
Permalink
I'm going to look for a place we can meet. I will let you know.
Warning, my first choice will be livermore, since I live here :-)

ron
Lawrence E. Bakst
2007-04-11 08:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone who wants to attend live or work in the Pleasanton or Hayward areas and might be able to contribute a location there? They are both nice halfway points for almost everyone in the Bay area.

I *might* be able to find something in Pleasanton. Give me a few days.

Best,

leb
Post by ron minnich
I'm going to look for a place we can meet. I will let you know.
Warning, my first choice will be livermore, since I live here :-)
ron
Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan
2007-04-10 01:20:12 UTC
Permalink
I am interested too. I am also in the Silicon Valley area.

Thanks
dharani
Post by Lawrence E. Bakst
All,
I am interested as well. I'm in the Silicon Valley area.
leb
Post by Christopher Nielsen
if there isn't, we should start one. i am in san francisco.
though, i am about to depart for fire season, but i'll be back some
time in november.
Post by ron minnich
Gee, is there a CA-based plan 9 user's group?
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Anthony Sorace
2007-04-10 03:02:19 UTC
Permalink
i'm not normally out there, but visit SF with relative frequency (one
coming up the first week in may). i'm interested in getting together
with other 9fans.
Eric Van Hensbergen
2007-04-11 11:57:10 UTC
Permalink
USENIX BoF in June in Santa Clara?

-eric
Post by Lawrence E. Bakst
Does anyone who wants to attend live or work in the Pleasanton or Hayward areas and might be able to contribute a location there? They are both nice halfway points for almost everyone in the Bay area.
I *might* be able to find something in Pleasanton. Give me a few days.
Best,
leb
Post by ron minnich
I'm going to look for a place we can meet. I will let you know.
Warning, my first choice will be livermore, since I live here :-)
ron
ron minnich
2007-04-11 15:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Van Hensbergen
USENIX BoF in June in Santa Clara?
see you there.

ron
Joel Franusic
2007-04-12 04:57:22 UTC
Permalink
I live 3 hours from the Bay Area, but would definitely want to attend
a meeting for 9fans.

If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)

To learn more about SuperHappyDevHouse, visit http://shdh.org.
To see what the party looks like, see http://flickr.com/photos/tags/shdh/
Post by ron minnich
Post by Eric Van Hensbergen
USENIX BoF in June in Santa Clara?
see you there.
ron
ron minnich
2007-04-12 16:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a possibility.


I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.

If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.

ron
David Hendricks
2007-04-13 22:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Hello everyone,
FWIW, I can set up a meeting on the Google campus in Mountain View, if
that's more convenient. Depending on when the meeting is, a 20+ person room
with video conferencing and catering should be easy.
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a possibility.
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
ron minnich
2007-04-13 23:37:02 UTC
Permalink
I can get there if it's after next week ...

ron
Roman Shaposhnik
2007-04-14 22:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hendricks
Hello everyone,
FWIW, I can set up a meeting on the Google campus in Mountain View,
if that's more convenient. Depending on when the meeting is, a 20+
person room with video conferencing and catering should be easy.
Personally -- I'd love that!

Thanks,
Roman.

P.S. Full disclosure: Google campus is a 10 minutes drive from my
place ;-)
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-15 00:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Grumble. Where did all you people come from? When I posted about 2
years ago to this list when I was living there, nobody wanted to get
together :(

--dho
Post by Roman Shaposhnik
Post by David Hendricks
Hello everyone,
FWIW, I can set up a meeting on the Google campus in Mountain View,
if that's more convenient. Depending on when the meeting is, a 20+
person room with video conferencing and catering should be easy.
Personally -- I'd love that!
Thanks,
Roman.
P.S. Full disclosure: Google campus is a 10 minutes drive from my
place ;-)
Joel C. Salomon
2007-04-15 01:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Grumble. Where did all you people come from? When I posted about 2
years ago to this list when I was living there, nobody wanted to get
together :(
You offering t
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-15 01:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Devon H. O'Dell
Grumble. Where did all you people come from? When I posted about 2
years ago to this list when I was living there, nobody wanted to get
together :(
You offering to host a 9fans shindig in New York, maybe? ☺
--Joel
Sure, I'm about 2 hours north of the city, but I don't mind travelling
there / picking people up around my place. There's good pizza / beer /
wine everywhere...
Christopher Nielsen
2007-04-15 01:53:23 UTC
Permalink
like ron, i can make it if it's after next week.
Post by David Hendricks
Hello everyone,
FWIW, I can set up a meeting on the Google campus in Mountain View, if
that's more convenient. Depending on when the meeting is, a 20+ person room
with video conferencing and catering should be easy.
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
David Hendricks
2007-04-16 09:23:41 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.

Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a possibility.
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
Joel Franusic
2007-04-16 17:10:07 UTC
Permalink
David,

A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!

Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party for
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a possibility.
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
David Hendricks
2007-04-17 07:22:20 UTC
Permalink
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest. Everyone
who wants to attend should feel free to log in to
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting using the password
"factotum" to add your name and suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
Uriel
2007-04-17 08:41:04 UTC
Permalink
I guess nobody noticed we got a perfectly fine working wiki for Plan 9
at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/

uriel

P.S.: Actually, it sucks, but not more than other wikis.
Post by David Hendricks
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest. Everyone
who wants to attend should feel free to log in to
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting using the
password "factotum" to add your name and
suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
Christopher Nielsen
2007-04-17 09:09:39 UTC
Permalink
if you think things suck so much, then either do something about it or shut up.
Post by Uriel
I guess nobody noticed we got a perfectly fine working wiki for Plan 9
at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
uriel
P.S.: Actually, it sucks, but not more than other wikis.
Post by David Hendricks
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest. Everyone
who wants to attend should feel free to log in to
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting using the
password "factotum" to add your name and
suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Christopher Nielsen
2007-04-17 09:10:05 UTC
Permalink
that wasn't meant to go to the list. sorry.
Post by Christopher Nielsen
if you think things suck so much, then either do something about it or shut up.
Post by Uriel
I guess nobody noticed we got a perfectly fine working wiki for Plan 9
at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
uriel
P.S.: Actually, it sucks, but not more than other wikis.
Post by David Hendricks
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest. Everyone
who wants to attend should feel free to log in to
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting using the
password "factotum" to add your name and
suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Uriel
2007-04-17 09:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Actually, most of the work done on the Plan 9 wiki in recent memory
has been by me. I sort of gave up because apparently nobody can be
bothered to even use it and they instead go use some junk who knows
where that doesn't even work from Plan 9, which is what my email was
about.

uriel
Post by Christopher Nielsen
if you think things suck so much, then either do something about it or shut up.
Post by Uriel
I guess nobody noticed we got a perfectly fine working wiki for Plan 9
at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/
uriel
P.S.: Actually, it sucks, but not more than other wikis.
Post by David Hendricks
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest. Everyone
who wants to attend should feel free to log in to
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting using the
password "factotum" to add your name and
suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by Joel Franusic
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org I
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
David Hendricks
2007-04-25 00:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Hello everyone,
Sorry for bumping this thread, but I want to remind everyone interested
in the Bay Area Plan 9 user's group meeting to sign up on the wiki page (
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting ). Log in with the password
"factotum" and edit yourself in. No matter where we end up having the
meeting, having an accurate headcount will be important for getting the best
facilities available and, if necessary, handling matters of security. It
would be a shame for anyone to make it out to Mountain View or Livermore
only to be turned away by a guard at the gate!

P.S. Thanks to the people who have made the wiki page look nicer :-)
Post by David Hendricks
I checked out a few wiki sites and pbwiki seems to be the easiest.
Everyone who wants to attend should feel free to log in to http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting
using the password "factotum" to add your name and suggest a time that's convenient.
Post by Joel Franusic
David,
A sign-up Wiki (9fans.pbwiki.com is available!) and/or an event on
Upcoming.org would be great!
Semi-related: I just got word that the next SHDH will be in Los Gatos
on May 5th. 2pm to 2am.
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
Perhaps we should try to make a sign-up Wiki somewhere?
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
If no meeting space can be found for a Plan 9 users group, might I
suggest attending SuperHappyDevHouse? It's an almost-monthly party
for
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
Post by Joel Franusic
"hackers and thinkers". An influx of Plan 9 hackers would be very
welcome :-)
looks like fun, I am on travel the april 28 one but june 9 is a
possibility.
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
I have found I can get a free room at livermore library for a small
number -- single digits -- of people.
If we can't do better that might be a start. If we had a plan 9 .org
I
Post by David Hendricks
Post by ron minnich
can rent a larger room as needed.
ron
David Hendricks
2007-04-30 00:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Hello again everyone,
After a brief discussion, Ron and I agreed that the meeting should be at
Google's campus in Mountain View rather than Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.
I'm in the process of getting things set up right now with the help of
Leslie Hawthorn, the Open Source Program Manager who some of you know from
her involvement in Summer of Code. With her help this should go rather
painlessly, but in case something comes up I'll be sure to let everyone
know.

Also, Ron brought up a very good point about organization: We need an
agenda. Ron suggested the following schedule:
6:30 arrival, refreshments
7:00 welcome, introductions all around, talk about why we are here and
what we're doing
7:15 or 7:30 somebody can show work in progress ( I can do THX if no
one else does)
do 2 or 3 of these depending on interest -- can someone talk about
Skip tavvakolian's work?
8:00 discuss what we can do, goals of the group, etc.

Any more ideas would be appreciated!
Uriel
2007-04-30 13:35:15 UTC
Permalink
It would be nice if you could record the event for those of us that can't come.

uriel
Post by David Hendricks
Hello again everyone,
After a brief discussion, Ron and I agreed that the meeting should be at
Google's campus in Mountain View rather than Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.
I'm in the process of getting things set up right now with the help of
Leslie Hawthorn, the Open Source Program Manager who some of you know from
her involvement in Summer of Code. With her help this should go rather
painlessly, but in case something comes up I'll be sure to let everyone
know.
Also, Ron brought up a very good point about organization: We need an
6:30 arrival, refreshments
7:00 welcome, introductions all around, talk about why we are here and
what we're doing
7:15 or 7:30 somebody can show work in progress ( I can do THX if no
one else does)
do 2 or 3 of these depending on interest -- can someone talk about
Skip tavvakolian's work?
8:00 discuss what we can do, goals of the group, etc.
Any more ideas would be appreciated!
David Hendricks
2007-04-30 18:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Hello Uriel,
Post by Uriel
It would be nice if you could record the event for those of us that can't come.
uriel
You've got it! Should we record the whole conference or figure out what
would be best suited for video recording (WIPs, tech talks, etc)? If so, we
should work work on that agenda idea a bit more.
Devon H. O'Dell
2007-04-30 19:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hendricks
Hello Uriel,
Post by Uriel
It would be nice if you could record the event for those of us that can't
come.
Post by Uriel
uriel
You've got it! Should we record the whole conference or figure out what
would be best suited for video recording (WIPs, tech talks, etc)? If so, we
should work work on that agenda idea a bit more.
I'd say the whole thing. That's what the FBUG in SV has done in the past anyway.
David Hendricks
2007-04-30 23:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello everyone,
It's official! On behalf of Google Inc. it is my privilege to invite all
you 9fans out there to our lovely Mountain View campus for the Bay Area Plan
9 Users Group meeting. We're scheduled to start at 6:00pm and go until
10:00pm on Thursday May 10. We have a spacious conference room which will
comfortably sit 20 people (more if we're willing to sit on sofas and
exercise balls :-) ). We'll have an overhead projector with easily
accessible video connectors on the table, a huge whiteboard and power
dongles for your notebooks available. In addition to myself and possibly a
few other Googlers, a security guard will be on hand to let guests in and
escort them to the conference room. An AV person will be there with a
camcorder so those who can't make it can catch up later (And yes, the video
will be made publicly available via Google Video). I've updated the Wiki
page and will post details as they come.

Special thanks to Leslie Hawthorn and the Open Source Programs Office for
their help in getting this together. Feel free to contact me directly or ask
questions on the mailing list. We look forward to seeing everyone there!
David Leimbach
2007-04-30 23:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hendricks
Hello everyone,
It's official! On behalf of Google Inc. it is my privilege to invite all
you 9fans out there to our lovely Mountain View campus for the Bay Area Plan
9 Users Group meeting. We're scheduled to start at 6:00pm and go until
10:00pm on Thursday May 10. We have a spacious conference room which will
comfortably sit 20 people (more if we're willing to sit on sofas and
exercise balls :-) ). We'll have an overhead projector with easily
accessible video connectors on the table, a huge whiteboard and power
dongles for your notebooks available. In addition to myself and possibly a
few other Googlers, a security guard will be on hand to let guests in and
escort them to the conference room. An AV person will be there with a
camcorder so those who can't make it can catch up later (And yes, the video
will be made publicly available via Google Video). I've updated the Wiki
page and will post details as they come.
Special thanks to Leslie Hawthorn and the Open Source Programs Office for
their help in getting this together. Feel free to contact me directly or ask
questions on the mailing list. We look forward to seeing everyone there!
That sounds great! I won't be there in person but I'll look for the video!
David Hendricks
2007-05-10 03:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Hello once again,
Just thought I'd drop one last note since we're less than a day away from
the meeting. I'm optimistic that the turnout will be what we expect from the
event wiki page plus several more I have spoken to via e-mail and off-line.

We need to be courteous to those hosting our guest speakers off site so
we'll have to get them started as close to 6:00pm as possible. I strongly
recommend showing up at the campus at least 15 minutes beforehand to make
sure signing in and troubleshooting won't cause delays. Give yourself extra
time on the highways especially if you're taking 101. Once you find our
campus, I suggest heading to the building 43 lobby to get a visitors badge.
The lobby is next to that big mess of umbrellas you see in the satellite
view of the area. Once inside, let the receptionist and/or security guard
know you're there for the Plan 9 Users Group meeting in the Segou room on
the second floor of B43.

I've updated the event wiki page (
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting) with contact information.
See you there!
Skip Tavakkolian
2007-05-11 15:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Thank you David, Erik and others at Google that made this possible.
Post by David Hendricks
Hello once again,
Just thought I'd drop one last note since we're less than a day away from
the meeting. I'm optimistic that the turnout will be what we expect from the
event wiki page plus several more I have spoken to via e-mail and off-line.
We need to be courteous to those hosting our guest speakers off site so
we'll have to get them started as close to 6:00pm as possible. I strongly
recommend showing up at the campus at least 15 minutes beforehand to make
sure signing in and troubleshooting won't cause delays. Give yourself extra
time on the highways especially if you're taking 101. Once you find our
campus, I suggest heading to the building 43 lobby to get a visitors badge.
The lobby is next to that big mess of umbrellas you see in the satellite
view of the area. Once inside, let the receptionist and/or security guard
know you're there for the Plan 9 Users Group meeting in the Segou room on
the second floor of B43.
I've updated the event wiki page (
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting) with contact information.
See you there!
David Hendricks
2007-05-11 16:07:39 UTC
Permalink
And thank *you* for giving such an excellent talk! The meeting was a huge
success and we'll look forward to hosting you all again in the future.
Post by Skip Tavakkolian
Thank you David, Erik and others at Google that made this possible.
Post by David Hendricks
Hello once again,
Just thought I'd drop one last note since we're less than a day away
from
Post by David Hendricks
the meeting. I'm optimistic that the turnout will be what we expect from
the
Post by David Hendricks
event wiki page plus several more I have spoken to via e-mail and
off-line.
Post by David Hendricks
We need to be courteous to those hosting our guest speakers off site
so
Post by David Hendricks
we'll have to get them started as close to 6:00pm as possible. I
strongly
Post by David Hendricks
recommend showing up at the campus at least 15 minutes beforehand to
make
Post by David Hendricks
sure signing in and troubleshooting won't cause delays. Give yourself
extra
Post by David Hendricks
time on the highways especially if you're taking 101. Once you find our
campus, I suggest heading to the building 43 lobby to get a visitors
badge.
Post by David Hendricks
The lobby is next to that big mess of umbrellas you see in the satellite
view of the area. Once inside, let the receptionist and/or security
guard
Post by David Hendricks
know you're there for the Plan 9 Users Group meeting in the Segou room
on
Post by David Hendricks
the second floor of B43.
I've updated the event wiki page (
http://9fans.pbwiki.com/Bay-Area-9fans-Meeting) with contact
information.
Post by David Hendricks
See you there!
Tim Wiess
2007-05-11 16:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hendricks
And thank *you* for giving such an excellent talk! The meeting was a huge
success and we'll look forward to hosting you all again in the future.
i didn't even realize that video con was an option for those close
to a branch office. i'll be there next time....
Skip Tavakkolian
2007-05-11 16:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wiess
Post by David Hendricks
And thank *you* for giving such an excellent talk! The meeting was a huge
success and we'll look forward to hosting you all again in the future.
i didn't even realize that video con was an option for those close
to a branch office. i'll be there next time....
we talked about that possibility. our conf link from kirkland was just
for the first hour of the meeting. i'm waiting for the video to see the
rest of the meeting.
Joel C. Salomon
2007-05-11 16:41:09 UTC
Permalink
i'm waiting for the video to see the rest of the meeting.
Will the video be available for other 9fans to watch?

--Joel
David Hendricks
2007-05-11 18:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it will be available to everybody pretty soon. We need to address a
couple special requests and make sure the audio is loud and clear for the
whole thing. Think of this as a trial run; things will look much better next
time.

Also, I should note that we only taped about the first hour and a half of
the conference when people were giving talks. It worked out for this meeting
since we had a pretty loose organization. It would definitely help if we can
come up with a better schedule for the next conference and let the AV people
know what we're getting them into to avoid technical difficulties.
Post by Joel C. Salomon
i'm waiting for the video to see the rest of the meeting.
Will the video be available for other 9fans to watch?
--Joel
Vester Thacker
2007-04-17 04:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hendricks
FWIW, I can reserve a conference room on Google's campus in Mountain
View if that's more convenient. A 20+ person room with video
conferencing should be easy. Catering service can be provided as well
if we plan carefully.
I`m sure that not the only one that would be interested in attending
via video conferencing. Once available could someone kindly provide
the connection details? Or if anyone has iChat, that might work as
well.

--Vester
ron minnich
2007-04-17 04:47:14 UTC
Permalink
what day would people prefer? thursday is good for me, mon-wed at
least next week are a bit harder (FCCM conflict)

ron
Christopher Nielsen
2007-04-17 05:55:19 UTC
Permalink
thursday works for me.
Post by ron minnich
what day would people prefer? thursday is good for me, mon-wed at
least next week are a bit harder (FCCM conflict)
ron
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
Roman Shaposhnick
2007-04-17 21:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ron minnich
what day would people prefer? thursday is good for me, mon-wed at
least next week are a bit harder (FCCM conflict)
thu and fri

Thanks,
Roman.
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