9atom vs 9front

[Kyle Laracey]

Hello

I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box / QEMU, and by now
I have just given up. Maybe I will try again later.

I still want to use Plan9 though, and so I was wondering what the
difference between 9atom and 9Front are. They both seem to have more
hardware support, more software, but I can't really understand what
the differences between the two are.

Neither have a very extensive description on their homepages.

Thanks
Kyle

[erik quanstrom]

Post by Kyle Laracey
Neither have a very extensive description on their homepages.

hmm. what kind of description are you expecting?

- erik

[Kyle Laracey]

Post by erik quanstrom

Post by Kyle Laracey
Neither have a very extensive description on their homepages.

hmm. what kind of description are you expecting?
- erik

Sorry. I guess 9atom does explain that it adds specific hardware functionality and software, but 9front on the other hand just explains that it is a fork of Plan9. Any other differences?

[Richard Miller]

Post by Kyle Laracey
I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box

Bell Labs Plan 9 and networking works well in virtualbox 3.1.8 using
Am79C973 virtual ethernet adapter in bridged mode, chipset PIIX3
selected and "Enable IO APIC" turned off. (Maybe not the only usable
settings but these work for me.)

Some newer versions of virtualbox have been reported as problematic.
You can search for "virtualbox old builds" on the web.

[David du Colombier]

Post by Richard Miller

Post by Kyle Laracey
I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box

Bell Labs Plan 9 and networking works well in virtualbox 3.1.8 using
Am79C973 virtual ethernet adapter in bridged mode, chipset PIIX3
selected and "Enable IO APIC" turned off. (Maybe not the only usable
settings but these work for me.)
Some newer versions of virtualbox have been reported as problematic.
You can search for "virtualbox old builds" on the web.

I agree with Richard and I can confirm Plan 9 works
fine in VirtualBox 4.1.24 (2012-12-19).

It can be downloaded here:

http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.24/

However, as Richard said, VirtualBox 4.2 is known
not to work with Plan 9 from Bell Labs.

[balaji.srinivasa+ (balaji)]

Post by David du Colombier

Post by Richard Miller

Post by Kyle Laracey
I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box

Bell Labs Plan 9 and networking works well in virtualbox 3.1.8 using
Am79C973 virtual ethernet adapter in bridged mode, chipset PIIX3
selected and "Enable IO APIC" turned off. (Maybe not the only usable
settings but these work for me.)
Some newer versions of virtualbox have been reported as problematic.
You can search for "virtualbox old builds" on the web.

I agree with Richard and I can confirm Plan 9 works
fine in VirtualBox 4.1.24 (2012-12-19).
http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.24/
However, as Richard said, VirtualBox 4.2 is known
not to work with Plan 9 from Bell Labs.

confirmed working with the same setup (bridged/Am79C973), IDE primary
drive and DHCP.

[Bakul Shah]

Post by David du Colombier

Post by Richard Miller

Post by Kyle Laracey
I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box

Bell Labs Plan 9 and networking works well in virtualbox 3.1.8 using
Am79C973 virtual ethernet adapter in bridged mode, chipset PIIX3
selected and "Enable IO APIC" turned off. (Maybe not the only usable
settings but these work for me.)
Some newer versions of virtualbox have been reported as problematic.
You can search for "virtualbox old builds" on the web.

I agree with Richard and I can confirm Plan 9 works
fine in VirtualBox 4.1.24 (2012-12-19).
http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.24/

I too am using Bell Labs Plan9 but on 4.1.22.
Settings that work for me:
system: chipset PIIX3, enable IO APIC, enable PAE/NX, Enable VT-x/AMD-V,
enable nested paging
Storage: IDE controller, PIIX4, use host io-cache, cd-rom secondary master
Network: bridged adapter, Intel Pro/1000 MT Server
Ports: Enable USB controller, Enable USB2.0 controller

IIRC you need to install matching virtual box extension pack
for USB to work.

Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

[Bakul Shah]

Post by Bakul Shah
Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

That's card dependent. It needs to support promisc mode AFAIK. Not all cards
support it.

Just discovered that at least on the MBP you can get bridged
mode to work by using en1: Wi-Fi (AirPort).

[Kyle Laracey]

Post by Bakul Shah

Post by Bakul Shah
Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

That's card dependent. It needs to support promisc mode AFAIK. Not all cards
support it.

Just discovered that at least on the MBP you can get bridged
mode to work by using en1: Wi-Fi (AirPort).

Really? I have the same setup as you mentioned, with Bridged Adapter, en1: Wifi (AirPort), and Promiscuous Mode set to {Deny, Allow VMs, Allow All}, but for each of those three options for Promsicuous mode, ip/ipconfig still times out with "ipconfig: no success with dhcp".

[Matthew Veety]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Bakul Shah]

Post by Kyle Laracey

Post by Bakul Shah
Just discovered that at least on the MBP you can get bridged
mode to work by using en1: Wi-Fi (AirPort).

Really? I have the same setup as you mentioned, with Bridged Adapter, en1: Wifi (AirPort), and Promiscuous Mode set to {Deny, Allow VMs, Allow All}, but for each of those three options for Promsicuous mode, ip/ipconfig still times out with "ipconfig: no success with dhcp".

This works for me on the last 2011 model (the one before the
"Retina" display MBPs) and it works on a 6 year old MBP. Your
problem may be card dependent as Matthew says or it may be
some config issue. Try debugging with tcpdump on the host. See
if DHCP provides a working IP address for other VMs (Linux for
instance) on the same laptop when connected via en1. See if
manually setting the IP address allows you use the net.

[Matthew Veety]

Post by Bakul Shah
Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

That's card dependent. It needs to support promisc mode AFAIK. Not all cards support it.

[Kyle Laracey]

Post by Matthew Veety

Post by Bakul Shah
Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

That's card dependent. It needs to support promisc mode AFAIK. Not all cards support it.

I think if I remember correctly I have gotten Linux to work under VirtualBox, without promiscuous mode -- I don't think that the network card in Mac's is capable of promiscuous mode.

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

It would be tres cool if this information was getting mirrored in the
Wiki.

[a***@9srv.net]

// It would be tres cool if this information was getting
// mirrored in the Wiki.

I've been copying over some of the more concise and
complete reports, but yes: people with working setups
should add their experiences there.

For those who have not used the wiki, editing existing
pages is pretty easy. In Acme acme on Plan 9¹, run
Local 9fs wiki
which will connect to the wiki and mount it at /mnt/wiki
within a running acme. Next, run
Wiki
to launch the client, which will read the files in there
and give you a much nicer interface. On the main page
there, you can right-click on
[Wiki index]
to get a list of all the pages on the wiki. Type in your
changes and execute "Put" in the tag when done.

For details, see the pages "Acme wiki instructions" and
"Wiki syntax"². Note in particular that the syntax is like a
*very* minimalistic version of the sort of markdown
used on many other wikis.

Anthony

¹ I'm told this is doable somehow on p9p, but I don't
how and can't confirm that.

² It'd be neat if someone would work out how to get the
plumber to handle /mnt/wiki paths (or some conventional
mapping thereof) so we could pass them around as
pseudo-hotlinks.

[erik quanstrom]

Post by a***@9srv.net
² It'd be neat if someone would work out how to get the
plumber to handle /mnt/wiki paths (or some conventional
mapping thereof) so we could pass them around as
pseudo-hotlinks.

just need to mount wikifs in the namespace of the plumber
with Local.

- erik

[a***@9srv.net]

Not unless I'm missing something. That makes the paths
plumbable, sure, but it doesn't hand them to Wiki (the acme
program), so you just get the directory that Wiki reads,
which isn't really the best situation.

Shouldn't be much to it.
Anthony

[Kyle Laracey]

Post by a***@9srv.net
// It would be tres cool if this information was getting
// mirrored in the Wiki.
I've been copying over some of the more concise and
complete reports, but yes: people with working setups
should add their experiences there.
For those who have not used the wiki, editing existing
pages is pretty easy. In Acme acme on Plan 9¹, run
Local 9fs wiki
which will connect to the wiki and mount it at /mnt/wiki
within a running acme. Next, run
Wiki
to launch the client, which will read the files in there
and give you a much nicer interface. On the main page
there, you can right-click on
[Wiki index]
to get a list of all the pages on the wiki. Type in your
changes and execute "Put" in the tag when done.
For details, see the pages "Acme wiki instructions" and
"Wiki syntax"². Note in particular that the syntax is like a
*very* minimalistic version of the sort of markdown
used on many other wikis.
Anthony
¹ I'm told this is doable somehow on p9p, but I don't
how and can't confirm that.
² It'd be neat if someone would work out how to get the
plumber to handle /mnt/wiki paths (or some conventional
mapping thereof) so we could pass them around as
pseudo-hotlinks.

I would love to help, as I have a good install, but I have no networking.

[Kyle Laracey]

Post by Bakul Shah

Post by David du Colombier

Post by Richard Miller

Post by Kyle Laracey
I've been trying for about two days to get the stock Plan9 from Bell
Labs to install with Networking under Virtual Box

Bell Labs Plan 9 and networking works well in virtualbox 3.1.8 using
Am79C973 virtual ethernet adapter in bridged mode, chipset PIIX3
selected and "Enable IO APIC" turned off. (Maybe not the only usable
settings but these work for me.)
Some newer versions of virtualbox have been reported as problematic.
You can search for "virtualbox old builds" on the web.

I agree with Richard and I can confirm Plan 9 works
fine in VirtualBox 4.1.24 (2012-12-19).
http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.1.24/

I too am using Bell Labs Plan9 but on 4.1.22.
system: chipset PIIX3, enable IO APIC, enable PAE/NX, Enable VT-x/AMD-V,
enable nested paging
Storage: IDE controller, PIIX4, use host io-cache, cd-rom secondary master
Network: bridged adapter, Intel Pro/1000 MT Server
Ports: Enable USB controller, Enable USB2.0 controller
IIRC you need to install matching virtual box extension pack
for USB to work.
Note: if your host uses wifi but no ethernet, bridged
adapter won't work.

Oh so if my laptop (host) uses Wifi for internet, then I cannot get networking to work in Plan9 under VirtualBox? I have gotten it installed, and snoopy shows packets arriving (many arps), but ip/ipconfig timeouts with "ipconfig: no success with dhcp". Is there any way to use wifi or no?

[hiro]

the difference about 9front is that it also works on real hardware, so
you don't need to mess with these VMs.

[erik quanstrom]

Post by hiro
the difference about 9front is that it also works on real hardware, so
you don't need to mess with these VMs.

i think you misspelled "similarity".

i'm sure you can point to some instances of hardware not working
in plan 9 and working in 9front. that's fine. but if i understand
correctly, 9front has taken the decision to not send in patches.
that's totally fine in my book. but it seems a little less than helpful
to not send patches and then criticize.

- erik

[Kurt H Maier]

Post by erik quanstrom

Post by hiro
the difference about 9front is that it also works on real hardware, so
you don't need to mess with these VMs.

i think you misspelled "similarity".
i'm sure you can point to some instances of hardware not working
in plan 9 and working in 9front. that's fine. but if i understand
correctly, 9front has taken the decision to not send in patches.
that's totally fine in my book. but it seems a little less than helpful
to not send patches and then criticize.
- erik

All of 9front is public in the hg repository. Not sure what the value
is in "sending in patches" of stuff we wrote because we wanted it, and
not necessarily to solve some larger problem. If anyone wants the code,
he can just take it.

I don't think hiro was criticizing 9front as much as the fact that 9fans
seems to discuss p9p and vbox on osx more than any other software.

khm

[Steffen "Daode" Nurpmeso]

Kurt H Maier <khm-***@intma.in> wrote:
|I don't think hiro was criticizing 9front as much as the fact that 9fans
|seems to discuss p9p and vbox on osx more than any other software.

I also installed 9front in the meanwhile (python, pfff), and
learned that the (broken) hostname setup can be skipped during
installation, and how easy it is to set the german keyboard
layout! That is really great (and it would be so easy to adjust
it as necessary!) design!

Acme in 9front doesn't respond to keypresses and starts hanging
around; i'd have a (rather useless though) 13997 bytes screenshot
of what happens on the controlling tty during this, in case noone
else has seen this and the behaviour is of interest -- it's just
that you place the cursor, hold down a key, and nothing visual
happens, but at times something comes back and then it seems as if
something has been queued somewhere, but not necessarily the key
that has been pressed (in fact the screenshot shows "bad character
in filename", which *definitely* not happened). But maybe it's VM
related anyway, which might be true since i had to turn to VESA
which is not needed for Plan9 from Bell Lapps, which also doesn't
show the mentioned behaviour.

|khm

--steffen

[Bakul Shah]

Post by hiro
the difference about 9front is that it also works on real hardware, so
you don't need to mess with these VMs.

A VM is far more convenient and portable for me.